24 replies to this topic

[MacabreDerek]

Hey all,

Normally I try to focus on the game that is rather than 'could be'. I know the clans are not a part of MWT as it currently stands and am fine with that. I'mnot what one could classify as a hard-core clanner, I use contractions quite liberally, I dont often use Aff/Neg (Save for as a way of conveying respect to a Clan player who I feel has earned it), and I am definetly not all about the clan-tech.

So why am I making this thread? Well, I'd be lying if I were to say I have more interest in the IS politics and story pre-clan, and more so the design of their mechs. IS has some interesting mechs in the bay, dont get me wrong, but I was exposed to BT through the MW perspective. For the most part though, this is me throwing out a bunch of random thoughts, feelings and experiences involving the Clans. It's an unorganized mess and as the title suggests, this isn't even really meant to be a thoughtful discussion. This is basicly me getting everything I have to say about the Clans that is at the top of my head right now and get it down onto paper (Or Forum, as is the case)

Though I didn't play MW2 alot, I did play the heck ouf of MW2:Mercs, and was grateful to the online community that took me in on Mercnet.

To me, the real story of BT begins with the Clan invasion, and when I think Mechwarrior, I dont picture an Atlas on the horizon.

I've never had the opprotunity to learn and play my dream lance in BT, nore have I had much of a chance to use them as intended in the MW2 games just due to the game mechanics. For me however, the iconic Star that floods my mind comes lead by the Timberwolf (I can hear the groans already), a Summoner, a Mad Dog, a Nova and a point of Elementals. These were the mechs I was brought up with, and they are dear to me.

One of the things when I hear about people talking about how much of a monkey wrench the Clans were in the gears of the BT and MW games, and I understand it better than I think most give me credit for. I am a huge advocate of rebalancing and taking liberties with Clan tech to make it a more even fight in the actual games.

The biggest thing about MWO and MWT is they are primed, set to take in a whole new generation who get to expirence Battletech in a way I never did, where they get to experience the clan invasion as a force that sweeps the galaxy, unlike me who came in with Clan tech being the status-quo.

That's a big regret as a 'lite-clanner', is that for me, all of the IS and standard 3025 tech feels like a huge downgrade. It just doesn't gel well with me, and I understand that's more a product of my BT enviroment than actual hard fact. Tough bit is that for all the faults of the Clans as a story, game piece, and sometimes over-the-top community, it really feels like there is no real way to discuss them because they have been discussed, debated, and whatever else, to death, with whole threads being run into the ground.

My absolute favouret mech is a Mad Dog (Vulture). In 3025, I use an Archer or Catapult as proxie because my TT group is unable or unwilling to play 3050, and aside from Instant Action on MW2:Mercs, a few games on MegaMek, and the chance to pilot that attrochious monstrossity in MW4, I never really got the chance to emerse myself with all the peaks of interest.

There was so much even in the story I wanted to know, but it feels like because of all the company-switching like they were playing musical chairs, the interesting part of the Clans wasn't really well told. After their defeat, Victor Steiner-Davion tried to discuss peace with them. I would have loved to have seen what Clan life must have become, how it adapted or didnt in the wake of their invasion being a failure, that for all intents and purposes they were becoming mixed among the inner sphere rather than a seperate group, how some Clanners may have tried to make a life for themselves among the IS due to being taken as bondsmen or what have you, etc.

Just another regret of what might have been I guess.

I still find it absolutely staggering how after so many years, how divided the community is with them. I would have thought coming into the discussion as late as I have in my life, you would have thought the player base would have reached some common ground, hell, they are both playing the same game in most respects, yet it still goes on. It's an interesting discussion to observe, but it's perversly amusing on how quickly they can get heated and out of control.

I really do wish I could find the history and the cultures of the Inner Sphere as interesting as I do the Clans, I really do, but perhapse the alure comes from the Clans being so alien that makes it so facinating. Maybe it's just the min-maxer in me trying to cover itself by expressing such, I dunno.

Still, we are reaching a Year of the Mech, where not one but Two games are remaking battletech from wence it started, and offers up the chance to try and find some way to reinvent this notorious group, for better or for worse. It excites and terrifies me what will become of the Clans I knew growing up. I guess the old saying applies here; May you live in interesting times.

Not sure if you're still reading this, or even much care. It's just me spitballin, but I thank you for getting this far.

[Tirick]

I think with any loyal fan base you will end up with people 'taking sides'. As an outsider (I've not played in 15+ years, aside from the odd MW game) I do find it a little odd how pronounced the feelings seem to be regarding clantech/no clan tech, however I did not have to live through the feeling of betrayal/unbalancing that occured when they were introduced. I cut my teeth on MW and MW2 alongside casual TT players, and the clans and said invasion are a neat storyline aspect to me. I just don't 'get' the mathematical or tactical concerns raised by their introduction as I was not a dedicated enough player to know specifics of the changes. Certain with MW:O and MW:T there is a unique opportunity to reintroduce the clans without making them all-powerful game changers. Only time can tell however.

[Battalia]

I think the hostility is mostly based on the MW franchise as no matter how you look at it, a clan heavy/assault is just better or comparable to their IS heavy/assault MOST of the time. But when you go ahead and throw a BV limit in there, or CV as tactics is doing, suddenly a CV of 2000 is on par with a CV of 2000. Nothing to complain about.

that said, MacabreDerek, don't take the whole "starting before clans" thing personally. It's not that both MWT and MWO hates clans, and wants to enjoy the clan free era, its simply that they want to do clans RIGHT. We don't want to end up with a "clan tech is par" environment. Yes, the Atlas sure doesn't seem as intimidating as a Timber Wolf anymore, but when their CV's match up, I want to see a good battle that is entertaining, not a wipe.

[Mystery]

I think tactics is going in the right direction and it has massive room to grow with the lostech of 3030 to clans in late 3049 going on to the jihad era, I love all aspects of the BT universe and even in clan era I would still field old school IS mechs and yeah I would lose sometimes but I knuckled a lot of wins thanks to my friends having to bid to invade X.

now talking the VGs clans were OP and well you had to use a lot of strategy with anything non clan based and well thats part of the fun there also.

[MacabreDerek]

Battalia, on 03 July 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

that said, MacabreDerek, don't take the whole "starting before clans" thing personally. It's not that both MWT and MWO hates clans, and wants to enjoy the clan free era, its simply that they want to do clans RIGHT.

Dont actually take it all that personally, just kinda kicked the thread off as a collection of jumbled thoughts. I do agree that they SHOULD start at 3025-3049 tech, I think it makes the most sense to do so. It's just the wait that's gonna kill me

[Tyrranus]

To me it sounds like you ought to get a hold of the battletech novels and hole yourself up for a month or so and read em I entered the CBT scene right at 3050 as the clans hit, and I immediately love CGB(Ghost Bear), but once I got into the lore and the RPG(the old school table top kind) and the novels I found a whole new love for the Draconis Combine, Magistracy of Canopus, Taurian Concordant, Goliath Scorpion, Marian Hegemony, Snow Ravens and more. There is a huge and immense background universe with huge detail waiting to be unlocked once you get past the video games. The novels are the best key to unlock a huge chunk of it.

I started the novels with Stackpole's "The Blood of Kerensky" trilogy and kept going from there, forward and backward. One note however, its really obvious at the start of the Kerensky Trilogy in 'Lethal Heritage' that, even for a best selling author, he was struggling to find his way into the universe and the characters, but by the time you are into the second book this has given way and you can see why he becomes a staple author to the franchise.

[Aldin]

The Clans cause me to think about how many fun things we could do at some point in this game. Can you imagine? Someone playing IS lances declaring what they will use in a battle and allowing Clan players to bid lower and lower CV's for the right to battle them? Makes me smile just thinking about it

[Teranika]

As a BattleTech player from well before the clans came on the scene, I think a lot of the "Clan Hate" (especially in the video games) is that it seems like the "easy" way out..

Oh.. your PPC has a minimum range.. mine's better.. no minimum range.
Oh.. your lasers are continuous, that's cool... mine pulse...

From a strictly story/lore perspective.. it makes sense that the Clans would be a bit more technologically advanced, since they started their Tech development from a stage the IS had not reached (again) after the brutality of the Succession Wars.

The video games, in all honesty, are to blame.. they made the Clan Tech way more powerful than the IS Tech.. and most of the games (at least, as far as I remember, it's been awhile since I played them) didn't really even attempt to follow the TT rules... just pretty much used the artwork, and the MechWarrior name..with the Clans being so much better in the video games, they were bound to attack folks who just wanted to flex their e-peen.

Games stopped being about fun, or who was better, and became cramming as much Clan tech as you could onto a chassis and laser boating.

[Enaris]

I have no real problems with the clans one way or the other. There are points where their lore is forced, but that's true with all of BT (especially anything from Stackpole. For such a huge universe, the same time it's an incredibly small world).

That said, I honestly think that the starting point for this game is good. The shocking thing about the Clans was just how much of a game changer they truly were. In pretty much every last detail, their equipment was better. If you start either game in media res, you lose that shock and awe. What's more, there becomes little real point in ever using the basic IS tech ever. Even using SL tech for all its worth leaves you a bit behind clantech (though much closer than IS).

By setting things up in this way and starting with IS tech, you get to develop an understanding of IS tech, and when the Clans hit, it's going to be like a thunderclap.

I am going to be curious to see how this game "advances" the timeline, if at all. I'd be happy to simply pound away with IS tech, with maybe the odd bit of SL-tech as an ultra-ultra-ultra rare card. That said, I imagine that some day, we'll be up to widely deployed SL tech, separate Clan Lances, and who knows, maybe even MRM or Heavy Gauss in the long run.

[Savarok]

Starting from this point also gives us a point to work up to, if we have all the uber leet amazing super charged epeen clan weapons from the get go then IS weaponry is likely to get passed over.

[Battalia]

It would be fun if the admins take some of the more developed guys in the community and gave them access to clan STAC's and let them run rampant for a bit to cause the shock and horror feel of expecting IS and getting a clan 'mech to the chin... *goes on day dreaming of a released MWT*

[Enaris]

Another possibility as long as we are still in 3025.

Clan only battles. After all, they're back in the Kerensky Cluster blowing one another up. Surely someone out there would want to be Clan Snow Weasel.. er Ice Hellion and get stomped on by the Diamond Sharks.

[Tyrranus]

The biggest issue with clan technology, and I can say this from experience in a game that has both I.S. and Clan tech, is you HAVE to restrict the clan tech properly. The game I mentioned has 0 restrictions on clan tech, the LAST thing you want to see is Gun4/Pilot5 clan mechs firing in reverse/hole camping and matching your BV/Ton/Units 1:1

While the full details of Zellbrigin are impossible to code and would neuter the clan ability to fight back, there are OTHER restrictions on clans that CAN be coded in and do NOT cripple them.

[Stexe]

I'm not sure why so many people are against including Clan technology in the future. If the game is balanced and uses BV and the most recent rules then it should be fairly balanced. Clan tech is better, but costs more in BV which means you can have less of it.

It would all balance out in the end.

[RonasAlabar]

I wouldn't mind it in the future. I think part of the reason for the vocal anti-Clanness, I know it is for me, is because we have just about never (outside of some MegaMek campaigns and btmux) got to play with just oldtech before. No Clantech, no IS countermeasures, just good old limited 3025 technology and designs. That's why this is so exciting; with the collectable nature of the game and the smaller designs of the MWT unit compared to the MWO one (I know, it's been debated before), it's possible and desirable for the game to have many different chassis and include a lot of designs that have seen little to no PC time since MW2M, or even ever.

That, and the fact that pretty much every MW game in the last long while has been mid to late Clan invasion; let us oldtech guys have our time in the sun for a few months before they start rolling SLDF and Clan tech. =) I know, for some people it will be hard with all the ten-single-heat-sink designs ('What do you mean I can't alpha with no consequence?'), but you'll adapt. Bwahahahah.

-RA, still banging the oldtech drum. =) Hey, I need to get a sig back up here.

[Tyrranus]

Stexe, on 04 July 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

I'm not sure why so many people are against including Clan technology in the future. If the game is balanced and uses BV and the most recent rules then it should be fairly balanced. Clan tech is better, but costs more in BV which means you can have less of it.

It would all balance out in the end.

Dont get me wrong, I want it to be included in the future. But BV2 isnt as great an equalizer as it seems.

[Dunkelzahn]

I am not against Clan Tech making its way into the game as time progresses. I am also not against Clan Tech in the Table Top in and of itself.
Why I didn´t (and stil don´tl) like the Clans when they were introduced is, along with them came the re-industrialization of the Inners Spere.

I just loved the background setting of jury-rigged, rusty, century old mechs slugging it out, where the thought of loosing your mech, that was in your family´s posession for 4 generations was pure horror.

Along ome the clans and mech-factorys turn up left and right, suddenly the IS starts to churn out mechs (and not just mechs but new mech _desings_) by the thousands.
It just changed the feel of battletech.

[MacabreDerek]

RonasAlabar, on 04 July 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

I wouldn't mind it in the future. I think part of the reason for the vocal anti-Clanness, I know it is for me, is because we have just about never (outside of some MegaMek campaigns and btmux) got to play with just oldtech before. No Clantech, no IS countermeasures, just good old limited 3025 technology and designs. That's why this is so exciting; with the collectable nature of the game and the smaller designs of the MWT unit compared to the MWO one (I know, it's been debated before), it's possible and desirable for the game to have many different chassis and include a lot of designs that have seen little to no PC time since MW2M, or even ever.

That, and the fact that pretty much every MW game in the last long while has been mid to late Clan invasion; let us oldtech guys have our time in the sun for a few months before they start rolling SLDF and Clan tech. =) I know, for some people it will be hard with all the ten-single-heat-sink designs ('What do you mean I can't alpha with no consequence?'), but you'll adapt. Bwahahahah.

-RA, still banging the oldtech drum. =) Hey, I need to get a sig back up here.

See, for me it's the complete other way around. I have maybe three games that involved Clan Tech, everything else was 3025, and quite frankly I am just not finding my way to make it work. Glad you posted your oppinion though, makes me feel less delusional. ~Starts hitting his head~ SHUT UP! SHUT UP ALL OF YOU!

[Aldin]

As someone posted earlier, even when they advance the timeline, I'm rather hoping they keep the ability to have matches at specific tech levels. Just because the Clans are invading doesn't mean there aren't still mercs on the fringe using hand me downs

[FireMandrill]

MacabreDerek, on 02 July 2012 - 11:29 PM, said:

There was so much even in the story I wanted to know, but it feels like because of all the company-switching like they were playing musical chairs, the interesting part of the Clans wasn't really well told. After their defeat, Victor Steiner-Davion tried to discuss peace with them. I would have loved to have seen what Clan life must have become, how it adapted or didnt in the wake of their invasion being a failure, that for all intents and purposes they were becoming mixed among the inner sphere rather than a seperate group, how some Clanners may have tried to make a life for themselves among the IS due to being taken as bondsmen or what have you, etc.

You need to go read Battletech: The Wars of Reaving, which describes what happens to the clans between 3067 and 3085. It describes how the Clans react to all these things, and try to "purge the Inner Sphere taint" from their society.