33 replies to this topic

[Cimarron]

The one thing I am conserned about is this. Will this game at some time be bringing in the lock box.
I have seen a number of F2P game start off with a store full of playing goods only to come out with the lock box.

I dont mind paying for stuff and Cbill but I will not put-up with Game Lock Boxes.

Can the maker of this game tell me if there are plans to use the lock box in this game?

[Teranika]

From what they've said so far, we won't get a 'lock box' style item (like STO). To continue to use STO's as an example.. that style of lockbox wouldn't work in MWT for a couple reasons:

1) MWT is a collectible game
2) There is no 'loot' drops, so no place for us to pick up a lockbox, and then have to buy the key.

I'm not a Dev...but, I'm fairly comfortable with saying we won't see that mechanic.

[JFlash49]

Im with this guy ^
his explanation is spot on. I too doubt we will see such things

[Cimarron]

Ok just asking because I really been wanting to play a game like this since Mech Commander.
I am a big TT battletech player and this game looks a lot like TT battletech so I want to make shier that the Box is not on this game to kill my dreams of finding a PC version of Mech Commander.

[Teranika]

Cimarron, on 17 August 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

Ok just asking because I really been wanting to play a game like this since Mech Commander.
I am a big TT battletech player and this game looks a lot like TT battletech so I want to make shier that the Box is not on this game to kill my dreams of finding a PC version of Mech Commander.

From what we've seen so far, this will be a pretty good adaptation of TT rules.. not a straight conversion, since there are some tweaks that will have to be made for playability/conversion..but it should be good. Check out Mater's formerly stickied "Things we know so far" thread, and the Media section of the site..

[Hador]

A lock box system like in STO?
God I hope that thing won't happen in MWT, really hate that system.

That said, I have not read anyinfo saying that MWT will go that way.

[Ruinous]

One of my pet hates as well. It has certainly caused a bit of controversy for GW2 but their lockboxes have keys which can be dropped as loot, as well as bought off the AH assuming other players list them. Nothing worse than getting loot and having to pony up some cash to open/access it, but so long as some fair methods exist to manage that without paying it just becomes another matter of convenience vs the dreaded pw2.

[Daegog]

lockboxes? I think stacs are close to that concept. But all stacs can be purchased with in game currency.

The only issue is the rate of earning that in game currency. If its too slow, then rare items will be very very hard to get for most people in game.

[Teranika]

Daegog, on 18 August 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

lockboxes? I think stacs are close to that concept. But all stacs can be purchased with in game currency.

The only issue is the rate of earning that in game currency. If its too slow, then rare items will be very very hard to get for most people in game.

STACs are not really close to the lockbox concepts.

In STO (and other games), you can loot lock boxes containing random items...the only way to open the lockbox to see what you looted...is to buy a key with real money.


MWT doesn't require you to spend real money in order to get your "loot".

[JFlash49]

Daegog, on 18 August 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

The only issue is the rate of earning that in game currency. If its too slow, then rare items will be very very hard to get for most people in game.

The harder it is to obtain, the it more fuels my desire to play even harder

[Amarus]

Daegog, on 18 August 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

lockboxes? I think stacs are close to that concept. But all stacs can be purchased with in game currency.

The only issue is the rate of earning that in game currency. If its too slow, then rare items will be very very hard to get for most people in game.

STACs are more like booster packs, just because the artwork for the STACs looks like a box does not mean that it is a lockbox, I imagine it more like me opening a new booster of magic cards. Because I can get it with in game and real money, and I get a set amount of items and their rarities, with lockboxes you are playing roulette with what you get.

[Morkovkin]

very similar to the card game, where you buy a booster with a random set of cards to increase his stack

[Gendou]

STACs as boosters are fine, as long as there are never any 'cash only' Diamond STACs or something like that.

Lockboxes and other cash-only Random Item Generators are most certainly not okay, and are the reason I left STO after spending quite a bit of money with them. Star Trek Online tries to use the Dilithium Exchange as a way to say that they are not P2W ("But if you grind dilithium, you can buy store credit, so it's not really pay-to-win!"). But it's a specious argument - someone somewhere had to buy those store credits, since the Dilithium Exchange is part of the player-run economy. That's even putting aside the daily caps on refining dilithium, the limited methods of grinding it, the crafting system that requires it...

MechWarrior Tactics has to make their money somewhere.
I don't begrudge them that, and I will part with my limited income to help them succeed.

I will buy cosmetic items like skins, avatars, emblems and the like.
I will pay for premium accounts that help boost Scrap and XP gain.
I will even pay for a Founder's Account if such a thing comes to pass.

But anything like Random Item Generators; Lockboxes; Store-Only Cards or Boosters; or Gold Armor and Ammo?
That's when I sadly pack up my stuff and bid goodbye to the game - and start to seriously question my investment in other games run by the same company.

[DirePhoenix]

The only difference I see between MWT's STACs and STO's (and CO's, and DCUO's, and FE's) lockboxes are method of delivery. You may not be buying a key to 'open' up some 'lootbox' that dropped from some enemy kill, but it's still a pay-for item (whether you grind out in-game currency or straight-up cash purchase) for a variety of random in-game virtual items. And just like those lockboxes have different varieties which have different sets of items associated with them, MWT has Bronze, Silver, Gold and Platinum STACs.

That being said, I don't have an issue with lockboxes. People that knee-jerk react to lockboxes as if they're some form of crack-heroin because they represent some form of gambling to them are a fear-mongering, superstitious lot that don't understand what gambling is and isn't.

[Teranika]

DirePhoenix, on 18 August 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

The only difference I see between MWT's STACs and STO's (and CO's, and DCUO's, and FE's) lockboxes are method of delivery. You may not be buying a key to 'open' up some 'lootbox' that dropped from some enemy kill, but it's still a pay-for item (whether you grind out in-game currency or straight-up cash purchase) for a variety of random in-game virtual items. And just like those lockboxes have different varieties which have different sets of items associated with them, MWT has Bronze, Silver, Gold and Platinum STACs.

That being said, I don't have an issue with lockboxes. People that knee-jerk react to lockboxes as if they're some form of crack-heroin because they represent some form of gambling to them are a fear-mongering, superstitious lot that don't understand what gambling is and isn't.

STACs are more like Mass Effect 3s MP 'supplies' then they are a lockbox.

[Oberon]

Teranika, on 18 August 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

STACs are more like Mass Effect 3s MP 'supplies' then they are a lockbox.

''

I was also going to ask about the difference between a lockbox and a STAC based on what I'd read online. But you've explained it well. A lockbox was loot you recieved that you had to spend real world money to "unlock". STACs are available for in game currency (Scrap), so they are substantially different.

The key difference is; you don't have to spend real world money to open a STAC.

[DirePhoenix]

Oberon, on 18 August 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

''

I was also going to ask about the difference between a lockbox and a STAC based on what I'd read online. But you've explained it well. A lockbox was loot you recieved that you had to spend real world money to "unlock". STACs are available for in game currency (Scrap), so they are substantially different.

The key difference is; you don't have to spend real world money to open a STAC.

This is the largest misconception about lockboxes that I constantly see. Lockboxes themselves aren't loot. They have no value. You don't 'earn' them (even if you did find one on the corpse of a hobgoblin you just murdered). The lockboxes themselves are not a reward. They're merely a placeholder 'reminder' token that you can get some random items by buying a key (again, either with real-money purchase or in-game currency purchase, but either way reminding you to visit the store). The lockbox keys are the actual items of value. It's not like "Oh noes! They locked up all mah phat lootz and now I need to buy some keyz to get them hur hurr!", it's "Oh hey, there's some gumball machines in the front of the store... do they have something I want in them?"

You could also argue that you don't have to spend real-world money to open up lockboxes either, since most games that use them offer alternate means of getting them other than real-money purchase. Some people choose to turn their noses at methods like the one Gendou described with STO's Dilithium market trading (because "someone somewhere had to buy those store credits"), but it is a legitimate method for users to get the real-money currency used to purchase such keys. STO and CO also make their keys available for trade on the in-game currency auction houses, for those that (for reasons I have yet to understand) find in-game currency more valuable than real-money currency.

The delivery method difference between lockboxes and STACs is that you directly purchase the random item instead of getting a worthless token (lockbox) and combining that with a purchased token (key) to get your random items (yellow gumball w/ red speckles).

[Hador]

DirePhoenix, on 18 August 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

This is the largest misconception about lockboxes that I constantly see. Lockboxes themselves aren't loot. They have no value. You don't 'earn' them (even if you did find one on the corpse of a hobgoblin you just murdered). The lockboxes themselves are not a reward. They're merely a placeholder 'reminder' token that you can get some random items by buying a key (again, either with real-money purchase or in-game currency purchase, but either way reminding you to visit the store). The lockbox keys are the actual items of value. It's not like "Oh noes! They locked up all mah phat lootz and now I need to buy some keyz to get them hur hurr!", it's "Oh hey, there's some gumball machines in the front of the store... do they have something I want in them?"

Not entirely true though. In STO there are the "normal" lockboxes and the "gold" lockboxes. Both require the same type of key, which costs the same but the rewards are distinctively different. You can't just buy a better key for better loot but have to get a better lockbox first.

[Ruinous]

Direphoenix, the point is that a lockbox is an rmt mechanic specifically designed as a hook so as to exploit the psychology of gamers. A large percentage of gamers have 'addictive personality' tendancies, making them vulnerable to this approach. A lockbox type item (call it a token or placeholder if you will) frustrates the gratification people get when they see that item and those with stronger addictive personality types will often pony up the cash to feed what is a real addiction. Most people who realise this on some level or other are *repulsed* by it. Zygna base their whole business model around these types of bait/hook and are quite rightly vilified for their utter lack of ethics.

If anyone is interested in the topic, gameful.org has academic articles and links to more research on their forums. Some real eye-opener stuff covering all aspects of gaming, I recommend the 'games-for-change' group as a good place to start.

[Gendou]

DirePhoenix, on 18 August 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

That being said, I don't have an issue with lockboxes. People that knee-jerk react to lockboxes as if they're some form of crack-heroin because they represent some form of gambling to them are a fear-mongering, superstitious lot that don't understand what gambling is and isn't.

Dilithium is a resource that must be ground out.
In addition, there is an 8000/day cap on refining dilithium.
In addition, Dilithium costs between 300 and 400 dilithium for a single store credit.
Lockbox keys cost 125 store credits.

Therefore, it takes five days to a week to grind out out enough dilithium to buy a single lockbox key.
And that is assuming that you choose to spend every day grinding out the daily cap of dilithium from the various sources.

Lockboxes contain loot ranging from consumables to unique ships unavailable anywhere else.
Most of them contain the worthless consumables.
The ships are generally a less than .1% drop, meaning a thousand lockboxes for a ship.
Therefore, other than spending decades grinding dilithium, the only real method of obtaining one of these ships is to spend thousands of real dollars on keys. Real-world cash is designed to be the only realistic method of gaining enough keys to obtain one of the lockbox-only ships.

So... I might - might - see your point if STACs took days or weeks to grind out a single one and then only dropped a couple of low-level ammo reloads. But given the fact that store-purchased STACs are meant to be a shortcut and not the primary method of obtaining STACs, I just can't see the comparison being valid in any way.

DirePhoenix, on 18 August 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

Some people choose to turn their noses at methods like the one Gendou described with STO's Dilithium market trading (because "someone somewhere had to buy those store credits"), but it is a legitimate method for users to get the real-money currency used to purchase such keys.

You fail to understand my point. It's a user-defined market. Someone had to buy credits to put them up on the Dilithium Exchange. If no-one bought credits from Perfect World, no-one could spend dilithium to buy credits. So it is very much the key point that someone somewhere had to pay real-world money to get the key.

Ultimately, while the dilithium grinder didn't pay real-world money, someone did.
Perfect World will always get paid full price for a lockbox key by someone regardless of the method used by the end user.
That is my point, and that is why there is not a legitimate in-game means of obtaining these items.